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Delaminated Board
justal - 9-6-2003 at 06:13

My Fanatic Cross (2002 model) has become all delaminated and spongy in the are between the front and back footstraps. I don't know what has caused it (there are no holes in it), and I'm pretty sure it shoudn't have happened in a board that is only a year old... Has anyone managed to reapir a board that is badly delaminated?? How did you do it and was it successful??

I was thinking of drilling a series of holes through the delaminated skin and then injecting resin into the void between the skin and the foam and trying to rebond the two layers with resin?? Any other better ideas?

Al.

markh - 9-6-2003 at 07:41

Can't help you on the repair aspect I'm afraid, but does your Cross have a large heel bumper section in that area? Mine is also quite spongy in quite a large area between the straps and I wasn't entirely sure whether it was meant to be or whether it is only supposed to be soft right behind the strap itself.

I know that EVA loses it's bounciness after a while which could explain it being less shock absorbent but not sure if that is what Fanatic use.

justal - 9-6-2003 at 16:58

No, theres no foot pad there, just the outer shell of the board and its definitely delaminated.

If it was under the straps then it could be blamed on heavy landing from jumps, but I only ever have my foot in between the straps where its delaminated when off the plane or carve gybing, so I'm not really sure whats caused it.

Al.

badexcuseforasailor - 9-6-2003 at 18:33

What have fanatic got to say about it? No board should delaminate after a year not in our climate anyway could understand it sat on the beach in vass or egypt.

justal - 9-6-2003 at 18:45

I haven't mentioned anything about it to Fanatic or Boardwise where I got it from as it wasn't new when I bought it. Maybe it had been in the sun in Egypt for a couple of months before I got it!!

It could be worth asking them about it though I guess.

Al.

kelvin - 9-6-2003 at 19:00

all try a pro repair its worth it on new kit , have had several done with bluechip ( where u get your gun kit from) he,s quite cheap , more importantly the repair carries a 12mth waranty, the last one he done for me was a mistral flow266 with a big crease accross the bottom coming right up the side of the rails , cost £90 but kept the board for over a tr and no further probs, also you had to take a really hard close look to see it had been repaired . worth a phone if only for some advice .

badexcuseforasailor - 9-6-2003 at 19:15

Boardwise get a lot of ex-vass stuff maybe it was getting a tan in vass

SeanBo - 9-6-2003 at 21:36

I thought boards only delaminated if they got wet inside...is there vent valve on the Cross that is leaking?

If not is there any sign of previous damage? (is this the board that hit 'that' log?

Does the board weigh more than it should do? (a good sign that there is water in there)

With respect to the sun issue, I thought a board left in the sun was more likely to split on a seam or warp?

One final thought, someone once told me a sudden shock (ie. hitting something) or excessive compression (ie standin on it whilst on the beach, or strapping down to the roofrack too tight) was the only cause of a soft spot on a non vented, non damaged board

All in all sounds like a shame for such a new board, even one that has had the excessive use of a forse-of-nature such as Al..........Maybe this is where the diary will start to tell the truth?

justal - 9-6-2003 at 21:44

There isn't a vent valve as far as I know (not that I've looked for one). And it isn't damaged or heavier than normal. And no, it isn't the board that hit the log....that one is well and truly damaged... It now has just as much repaired surface area as it does original surface area, it weighs a ton, but still goes well when it REALLY blowin'.

Its pretty obvious where it is delaminated though. i can feel it giving way under my feetn when I'm standing on the board and it covers the whole area in between the front and back foot straps. The whole area is now really soft and can be visibly pushed in a few mm with only light finger pressure.

Think I'll either go the Blue Chip route and get it repaired, or sail it until it breaks completely and claim on the insurance!!!

I'll give blue chip a ring and see what they say, but it will mean being without my most used board for a couple of weeks.

Al.

MartinF - 11-6-2003 at 22:43

quote:
Originally posted by SeanBo
I thought boards only delaminated if they got wet inside...is there vent valve on the Cross that is leaking?



That's not really the only cause - a board can delaminate for several other reasons:
As a result of impact - particularly a heavy impact spread over a large area - or simply through repeated impacts.
As a result of extreme temperature variations and rapid temp change.
As a result of rapid pressure changes (like transporting in a plane with the vent plug tightly screwed in)

However, as the thing's a carbon sandwich construction, the whole meaning of delamination takes on a different slant - has the sandwich come adrift from the foam, has the skin come adrift from the sandwich, or both?

Al, I'm surprised you say there's no vent plug - the 2002 Cross has a vent screw right in front of the mast track. It's just about visible on the (hopefully) attached pic. If there isn't a screw then goodness knows what the board's provenance might be. Special rental board construction, perhaps (if it did come from Vass or somewhere similar)? - Mistral used the do the Screamer & Explosion in special "school" versions - different construction & graphics from the standard. I wasn't aware that Fanatic did the same (though as they're both the same company now, who knows!?).

BTW: You do seem to get through boards, don't you? It's not that long since you were destroying an F2 Air isn't it?

It does raise the question though of whether it's worth buying ex-Vass boards (assuming that's what this is). Was your F2 also an ex-rental board from Boardwise?

WRT repairs - there are a couple of options:
Certainly drilling a number of holes & pouring in resin may help. Just make sure you use a decent epoxy resin that designed for use in water. DON'T UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES USE POLYESTER RESIN!! It'll melt the sandwich & the underlying foam. Once the resin's gone in, you'll need to apply a fair amount of force on the delaminated section to a) spread the resin throughout the void and b) ensure the void closes as much as possible. G-clamps, lengths of wooden batten & nylon rope help here.

Alternatively, you could cut away the skin around the delamination - using a really sharp craft knife. Although this sounds drastic, I find it's always much easier to repair a large section than piddling around with tiny bits - like a series of holes! You can easily see what you're dealing with.

With the skin removed - depending on whether or not the sandwich comes away with the skin, you can then resin the sandwich back onto the board, and/or the skin back onto the sandwich - again applying pressure whilst the resin cures - this should also squeeze resin into the crack where you sliced the skin off, sealing that, too. Yes, you'll have a visible panty-line, but it'll be a solid repair.

To finish off, you should really cut back the top of the resin to 0.5mm or so below deck level, & then fill in with gel coat which should then be rubbed down flush. Epoxy resin isn't really long-term waterproof so the gel coat helps seal it in.

Finally, you could then re-apply a non-slip finish if too much non-slip got rubbed off. You can either use a proprietary non-slip (expensive), or diy with resin & granulated sugar. Polyester resin should be ok for this but test a tiny drop of it on a small area of skin first to make sure it doesn't melt it.

HTH,
Martin

[Edited on 11-6-2003 by MartinF]

justal - 12-6-2003 at 05:51

Cheers Martin....

It probably does have a vent screw really, I've just never looked for it or taken any notice of it!! I'll check next time I have the board out (which looking at the forecast may be a week or so).

As far as breaking boards go, then the F2 Max2Air was a one off, all the boards I've had to date have been fine and without a mark on them after several years use. The Max2Air had something wrong with it as I was able to push my fingernail through the skin with only a tiny amount of pressure and it cracked and broke every time I stood on it, so was completely unsuitable as a windsurf board. I'm still annoyed that Baordwise wouldn't agree with me, although they did finally swap it for this Fanatic Cross, so at least they sorted it out for me.

The wave board that I broke recently is pretty old and was involved in a freak accident with a tree!!

As far as I can tell with the Cross, the sandwich skin has come away from the foam, thats what it feels like at least. If it was under the footstraps then I'd attribute it to repeated impacts from heavy landings, but its between the footstraps and I'm sure I don't exert THAT much pressure through my feet when carve-gybing!!

You're right about large areas being easier to repair though, fiddling around with tiny bits and then trying to get them to look nice is a nightmare. Big, bold and brutal is best!!.... I'm just a bit reluctant to do that on a £500, year old board.

I'll let you know what I end up doing about it.

Al.

justal - 14-6-2003 at 10:38

OK...The board does have vent screw!!!

Also, I've decided that it was the roofbars that have caused the delamination as its right where the board rests on them when on the roof.

I might give the drilling small holes and injecting resin into the void thing a go, then if that doesn't work I can always go for the big bold and brutal repair approach.

Alternatively... Does anyone want to buy a 2002 Fanatic Cross.. only a year old!!!

Al.

MartinF - 15-6-2003 at 12:03

quote:
<<snip>>

Also, I've decided that it was the roofbars that have caused the delamination as its right where the board rests on them when on the roof.

<<snip>>


That's a bit worrying - what sort of padding do you have on your roof bars? If the bars are well padded, they shouldn't cause that sort of damage. Other factors may be straps that are too tight (causing crushing) or straps that are too loose (causing drumming/bouncing).

Cheers,
Martin

[Edited on 15-6-2003 by MartinF]

IainO - 15-6-2003 at 22:29

Its for this reason that I stopped buying production boards and stick with customs (having broken Mistral, Bic and AHD boards). When you see how a production board is constructed, with everything placed in the mould then compressed, then there is little surprise that a number come out of the mould with various layers having slipped.

I have seen a Seatrend (one of the early pioneers in sandwich construction) were the top divinicell layer had moved as it was placed in the mould. This resulted in an air gap running the full length of the left hand rail which had allowed water to propagate the whole board when it suffered a small ding. This made Al's delamination look insignificant as the whole of the deck seperated from the hull

You rarely get this with a custom as each layer is applied by hand so these problems can be seen and avoided.

On another note, any custom manufacturer will advise to open the air plug whenever the board is not in use. The outer shell and the inner foam will expand and contract at different rates with temperature changes which causes delamination. In some cases this can render the warranty void.

[Edited on 15-6-2003 by IainO]

MartinF - 16-6-2003 at 20:44

quote:
Originally posted by IainO

On another note, any custom manufacturer will advise to open the air plug whenever the board is not in use. The outer shell and the inner foam will expand and contract at different rates with temperature changes which causes delamination. In some cases this can render the warranty void.

[Edited on 15-6-2003 by IainO]


Iain - that's a good point about opening the vent screw when not in use - something I do every time, without fail. The sad thing is, many people feel it's ok to ignore it & leave it permanently tightened up - and dealers often don't offer any better advice than just that.

IF this was a Vass board, and IF it was shipped over by air and IF the vent plug wasn't open, then the low cabin pressure could have done it. Also, if it's been used in hot Vass & then shipped to cold UK (even by sea) with the vent plug done up tight, that wouldn't have done any good either.

OTOH, The only board I've EVER broken in any permanent sense, was a custom board!! That said, my JP Wave is extremely delicate and when it got cracked on the nose, revealed a void under the skin. That took some repairing.

Martin

[Edited on 16-6-2003 by MartinF]

SeanBo - 16-6-2003 at 21:55

Beware... there is a very 'boring' thread to follow.....

I religiously loosened the vent screw in both our boards (F2 Phoenix and F2 Powerglide) for about 12 months until I noticed that water was staying trapped in the vent screw cavity and would therefore seep into the board when the vent screw was loosened.

I had a huge debate on the boards forum and with other more experienced windsurfers and in the end the shop I bought from (FC Watersports in Poole) summarised in the following way:

The vent screw is there to accomodate big differences in environment i.e. hot/cold...high pressure/low pressure. The Uk does not suffer the extremes that these boards can cope with.

In summary as our boards were due to stay in the UK the key element was heat. Both boards are kept in a cool garage (temperature not style, there is nothing 'cool' about having a garage unless you are in to modern estate houses and perinial flowebeds!!).

When on the top of a car the boards are kept in board bags with a 'silver' refelctive base which reflects the heat.

Overall it was agreed by the shop/supplier that there was no need to loosen the vent screw under these conditions.

The follow on debate (yes I can be very 'anal' about my possesions) was whether the 'o' ring seal would degrade over time. the conclusion was that it would an should be replaced once a year for safety.

HOWEVER...it was agreed by the shop and supplier that sailing the board with the screw undone/missing would cause more damage to the board than forgetting to loosen the screw in 'normal operating conditions'. So there you go.

I guess others have had different advise, but this has served me well so far (3 yeras)

Hope this helps someone

IainO - 16-6-2003 at 22:42

I must admit that when I first got a board with an air plug I thought that the UK weather would not fluctuate enough to warrant equalising the pressure on a daily basis but I thought that it would be a good practice to get into.

I was surprised by the number of occasions I have derigged and loosened the air screw and heard an audible hiss. This may be due to the fact that I store my boards in an estate car and the temp difference on hot days can be quite large.

I think that, unless you can afford to replace your kit annually, it's a sensible habit to get into to release the air plug every time you derig. It becomes habit to tighten it when you fit the deck plate and the fin.

justal - 17-6-2003 at 06:03

Well... Maybe I should pay more attention to the vent screw in the future. My board is kept in a board bag on the roof at all times (a silver reflective one, but I guess it still gets quite hot). I don't know how much of a temperatue difference is needed to cause delamination problems, but I guess there could be enough on certain days here.

I'm still pretty sure it was caused by the roof bars though, or at least they contributed to the delamination problems. The bars do have pads on them and the board is always in a bag when on the roof. I tighten the straps fairly tightly so the boards don't move at all, but I'm sure I don't crush the board with them. It's just that the area of delamination corresponds exactly with the position of the bars.

Ho Hum.... Guess I'll have to get the resin out one day and repair it.

Al.

Dave - 17-6-2003 at 12:20

I'm feeling a bit guilty, when I first got my board I always loosened the screw, but after a while .... well you know how it is .

I have to say that I agree with Seanbo, I really stopped because there was salt and crust forming around the edge of the thread. Again I store my board in a 'cool' garage, so I guess that helps.

Mind you I don't suppose I create as much heat as Al with the speed he generates

[Edited on 17-6-2003 by Dave]

MartinF - 17-6-2003 at 17:13

As SeanBo says - at the risk of getting slightly anal about this...

Board in bag gets hot in the sun - reflective topside on bag or not. It gets hot.

Sea is cold. The best we can hope for around our tepid shores is ~16C.

There could be a sudden 15C - 20C temp gradient when it first hits the water - though chances are, it'll have cooled down a little whilst rigging up.

I guess we'll all have different opinions & experiences, but I'll certainly stick with slackening off the vent screw every time the board's not in use (actually, that's about 99.999% of time isn't it?

Martin

justal - 17-6-2003 at 17:52

quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Mind you I don't suppose I create as much heat as Al with the speed he generates

[Edited on 17-6-2003 by Dave]


Its not the speed, its the proximity to the sun whilst jumping that creates the heat!!!

Al.

mikeypies - 28-6-2003 at 17:02

Hi all

Delam boards well I've had a few boards fold on me including major delam also I've done a few major repairs

causes of delam

board vent scewed up when cold then exposed to heat yes in the UK I blew a board apart the bottom went convex never never never leave a board in its bag in the sun or in car/dark van for any lenght of time it will be damaged (vent closed ) dont follow wel get a 2 liter pop bottle cool screw tught then put out in the sun a 80 liter wave board will hold well inexcess of two liters belive me I know to my cost

big flat jumps killed another custom board in Pozo this way the resin they used was shit

rough handeling the sandwich is quite elastic esp airex but polystyrene is not and theres not much resin attaching the two together bang it hard nothing will show but the delam will have started

exhire boards do not buy unless v.cheap (£200 max poss more for a soto board JP ) seen a mistral which was like a sponge only 10 m old fit only scap the rocker was no way like it was new.

secondhand board go over vvcarefully tap top and bottom any hollow sounds walk away its a buyers market

delams spread and spread rapidly catch it early and repair or ignor and buy a new board

What do I do well 2 a year winter and summer preasure test all the boards and equilze any preasure otherwise I leave the vents alone but the boards go from garage to car 15 min to beach sail and then back home if a board is left in the car it is covered by 2 bags and sun roof is left open

When the board is dinged and water gets in do not sail do not use Dr Ding it is crap it is hard and is difficult to seal the ding use araldite rapid cures in 5 m nice and runny and is elastic so it keeps water out if you put tape on the outside the repair is finished esp if the board is old. If water is inside ie lots drill a hole in the end and flush with fresh water leave to dry a couple of weeks then repair.As it is impossible to get all the water out you will have to ultra carefull with temp variations as the water vapour will expand a lot more.

Al with your board try the warenty if that fails go big and cut out the Knackered bit and vac bag some new sandwich in it is easy I've done it loads of times and theres no weight gain I've got the contact details for airex devinacell ect all you need is a vacuum pump (fridge motor) and common sense



justal - 30-6-2003 at 04:46

You're probably right Mikeypies... but vacuum bagging doesn't sound THAT easy!!!

I'll look into it though.

Al.

mikeypies - 30-6-2003 at 20:11

honest it is I've only got 2 o levels and I worked it out next time you are visiting your folks give me a shout

jase - 12-8-2003 at 10:17

Hi

This is not entirely relevant to the delam issue but i kept noticing references to how bad ex-hire boards are. I have bought sails before from ClubVass and they were fine - although i always bought lighter wind kit in the hope that they weren't used as much. I was thinking of buying a Fanatic Cross 140 from them with the same thinking in mind. They are asking for £349 for a 2003 model cross - is this a bad idea?

thanks for your help

Jase

justal - 12-8-2003 at 16:09

Jase,

Just check the board carefully before you buy it. If theres nothing wrong with it now, then theres probably no reason why it should develop any problems any sooner than any other board. Look for repairs etc as well. If you can see that its been repaired then it probably isn't great. You won't really be able to see a really good repair, and a really good repair won't be a problem anyway as the repair should make it as good as new anyway.

Its always going to be a bit of a gamble buying 2nd hand kit of course, but most of us have no choice as its the only way we can afford to get any kit at all. £349 sounds like a pretty good price for a 2003 board, but just remember, if it sounds like the price is too good to be true then it probably is.

Take a look at the board yourself first if at all possible.

Al.

jase - 12-8-2003 at 21:48

Hi Al

Thanks for the info - this helps. The board will come by mail order but they say that if i am not happy with it i can send it back. I'll be extra careful when i check it ;-)

Only thing i didn't ask was: Did you like your cross? The 140 is going to to be for the wife, i was considering the 120 for me ;-)

Jase

justal - 13-8-2003 at 06:07

I always have the same problem. Living here miles from any windsurf shop means that I have to buy everything mail order as well... I hope the board works out OK for you.

Yep, I like the cross. Its not particualrly exciting in any one area, but seems to perform OK in just about everything. Its fast, but not as fast as some, planes relatively early, gybes OK, jumps OK and copes with waves OK. I guess its OK at freestyle as well, but I can't do any so can't comment on that.

Generally its a good allround board. I use mine (Cross 100) as my biggest board with my 5.7 and 6.3m sail in winds from 14-20 knots and any water type from dead flat to about 4 foot waves (8 foot faces).

Let us know how it goes.

Al.

justal - 19-8-2003 at 05:54

Well, its finally had it. Its now taken on FAR too much wtaer for me to sail it and has a huige crack across the deck. I can't get it anywhere to get it repaired for a while either (if it is repairable) so it looks as though my biggest board for a few months will be my 84 ltr Hifly, if its not windy enough for that then I guess I'll have to go kite-surfing instead.

Al.

justal - 22-7-2004 at 06:47

It's Dead!!!

My Fanatic Cross finally had its last sail at Traigh Lingeigh (North Uist) earlier this month. Before the session the delamination had spread to the whole board, with the underside having a good inch between the outer skin and the inner core (all over the whole of the underside of the board). I could obvioulsy feel and hear the skin flexing and warping as I sailed it, and a few little hairline cracks had appeared in the skin.

By the end of the session these hairline cracks had become wide cracks that stretched across the whole of the board, so the inch wide void between the skin and the core was filled with water... No wonder it felt a little slow!

Not sure if I'll replace it yet or not as I also need a 85 litre board and a small wave board!

Al.

P.S. Anyone want to buy a (well used) 2002 Fanatic Cross!!!

kelvin - 22-7-2004 at 07:24

go on , go the full hog get em all , u know you want to ,
boot sale this Sunday get up there and stock up !

badexcuseforasailor - 23-7-2004 at 16:39


quote:

P.S. Anyone want to buy a (well used) 2002 Fanatic Cross!!!



Does it come with a bucket of epoxy resin and a roll of
gaffer tape?